I'm Nicole Fisher. I design spaces for a living, crafting those wow moments our clients get to enjoy every single day. And I've spent the last 13 years figuring out what people really want versus what they think they want. Turns out that applies to basically everything in life. So pull up a chair. This is The Interior Perspective. Okay, welcome back to The Interior Perspective. My guest today is a New York icon. In 1993, as an executive director of the Council of Fashion Designers of America, or better known as CFDA, she took a scattered set of runway shows in lofts and showrooms and put them under one roof, the tents at Bryant Park that became New York Fashion Week. She then took the idea globally with ING. Helping launch fashion weeks from Berlin to Mumbai to Sydney. And for the past 16 years, she's been the one asking the questions. Her series Fashion Icons at the 92nd Street Y has sat down with more than 70 of the biggest names in the industry, from DVF to Tom Ford to Valentino. And this year, Penn State inducted her into the Hall of Fame. They call her the Godmother of Fashion. And today she's in the other chair. Fern Mallis, Welcome to the show. Thank you. Happy to be here. Good. I'm so happy you're here. And I really want to start with kind of the business side of what you've built, because I really feel like you've had a true pivotal influence in how the industry has evolved. You've built something bigger than one person. What did New York Fashion Week teach you about building something versus owning it? Well, that's a good question. I mean, I learned a lot about building it. It was, as Hillary Clinton has said, it takes a village. It wasn't just me, but I clearly was the spearhead and was making all the calls and dialing for dollars to get it all paid and putting all the pieces together. Looking back at it now, I wish that it was the kind of opportunity that I could have owned it. But I was just hired to be the director of the CFDA, so I was doing it under the umbrella and auspices of the organization. But it would have been nice if I had figured out a way to own some of that. What would you have done differently today to own some of that? Well, I mean, I would have been an independent entrepreneur and I would have had all the You know, all the legal aspects and contractual things worked out to own it. But in a funny way, it's also hard to own what that was because it's an initiative. You know, it's not brick and mortar. It's not a product. It's an idea that now doesn't even exist. I mean, now the shows are back to where it was before I organized it, right? It's all scattered and all over the place and very disjointed, and everybody's very unhappy. Are they? Okay, we're gonna have to get into that. Um, so you mentioned entrepreneur. That is like the crux of Fern Mouse LLC. So what are, what are clients coming to you for now? Clients come to me now for sage advice and counsel, and they come for introductions. They come for creative ideas. They come for, you know, really putting something together. And, and, uh, and I'm especially known for— to people for making introductions and opening doors for people. And, um, you know, and my endorsement and involvement is a— is a, like, a little Good Housekeeping seal. Of course. It makes— relationships are everything. And that is all about relationships. It spills into everything. How do you find that this really spills into the— your interview series now that you've kind of pivoted into that? Well, again, the interviews are about relationships. Um, I, I will only interview somebody that I like or really admire. Or I know. There's a couple that had come up through the ranks because of something happening in their business and career, and the timing is right and I get to know them. And certainly by the time the interview's over, you know, 900 people or 800 in the auditorium and however many thousands might be streaming also get to know them. Yeah. I mean, they really are They're really terrific interviews. I'm very proud of that. I mean, I don't usually toot my own horn, but, uh, I'm very proud of how that series has evolved. You should be. I think there's something so special about being able to get behind the facade of what everybody sees. Like, there's typical interview questions that you get that you, you're almost robotic when you're saying them at this point, you know, um, especially as a figure like yourself or a figure like a well-known designer. They're, they're used to saying the same thing, so interview series has really allowed the veil to come down for people to see them in such a personal, romantic way that allows them to connect. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I— my talks are not about, tell me about your fall '96 collection versus this spring, you know, what did you do differently? It's really— that's not it. I don't care about that. I want to know who you are, right? What were your parents like? You know, how did they meet? What was your bedroom like growing up? You know, you— who are your siblings? Are you close with them today? You know, you just find them out as human beings. Yeah. You know, and then you wind up finding out, which I have found out over and over and over and over again, that their grandmother is the most influential person in their lives. So often that happens. Do you have a specific interview that you've done that's really surprised you? Not really. I mean, they were all They're all pretty, pretty, pretty great. I mean, when people ask me my favorite interviews, I will usually say Bill Cunningham, the late photographer from the New York Times. It was an epic, epic interview with him. And I also am still so fond of the interview I did with Leonard Lauder. Because of the extraordinary man that he is and the business he's built. You know, and then, then the rest all fall into place. Valentino saying on the stage in the 92nd Street Y, I think I tell you more than I ever tell anybody anything. I think I need to tell you what underwear I'm wearing. You know, and the place just cracked up. And I was like, yes, please. That's so funny. But he didn't. But he didn't. I always say that when we're Uh, as an interior designer, we get to know people so intimately. Like, we know where your underwear is and how you like it folded. Oh yeah, you guys are like shrinks working with— yeah, 100% doing the interiors with projects with people. Absolutely. Um, okay, so I want to go back to before all of this came to fruition, before, um, the CFTAs. You did spend some time in interior design. Can you tell us a little bit about it? What pulled you back to fashion? Well, I started out very much in interiors. I mean, my first jobs were in fashion through various, you know, I don't think we have enough time to go through all of that, but then I started a public relations business just because I thought I had 411, which today would be Google, you know, on my forehead. Everybody would ask me, how do I get this? Where do I get that? How do I do this? Where do I— who do I rent? plates for, for a party. And I realized you can get paid for this information. And I started a PR company. My friend Michael Beirut, who's the best graphic designer in the world, did my business cards and stationery. And I was in the office of friends Scott Bromley and Robin Jacobson, who had an architecture and interior design firm. And At the time they were designing Studio 54, so that was a pretty heady time in the office. But my first clients started in fashion and then shifted to interiors and architecture. My sister was an interior designer and became an architect, and I was working for companies like Knoll International and LCS and Jack Lenner Larsen and Gunlock, and I mean just all sorts of furniture and design companies, Fasoski Carpets and textiles, all different design firms. And I mean, I love that world. To me, it's a very seamless transition from fashion to interiors and design and architecture. You know, I never understood how people could dress really well and live in a very tasteless apartment or home, you know, or vice versa, have a gorgeous home, gorgeousness, and then have no taste in what they're wearing. You know, to me it's all, it's all connected. It's just taste level and style. Um, so that's where I started, and eventually, um, eventually I closed the PR business when I took a job with a client which was the IDCNY, the International Design Center in New York. which was being built in Long Island City, and it was a million-square-foot project of interior furnishing showrooms. Wow. And it was a spectacular time to be doing that, organizing that industry. And that was the days of the, you know, the architects were way more famous than the fashion designers in those days. It was the days of Michael Graves, Richard Meyer, Peter Eisenman, that whole group, the New York Five. And I loved working with all of them, and I loved all that design work, and I loved the whole interiors universe. I still have many, many friends in that world. And that kind of stopped at the late'90s, the late '80s, when there was a big recession. And people were no longer buying millions of square feet of furniture for huge office buildings, and everything just stopped. And that's when I left and I took a temporary PR job with an old PR firm I knew and helped them out with a couple of clients. I came with what was then called my triple Rolodex. Yeah. And Next thing I knew, I threw my hat in the ring after the CFDA threw its first big AIDS fundraiser called Seventh on Sale. And I, I, they were looking for a new executive director. It was a very quiet organization. Nobody really knew what the CFDA was. And I figured if I can organize all the architects and interior designers to come to Long Island City for events and activities and openings and Everything I could, I could organize designers as well. Right. What an incredible trajectory. That's unbelievable. Do you find that there are— I agree with you in terms of style and taste, but I do think that there takes some to execute it is where the difference really lies. Do you find that there are designers moving into this interior industries or vice versa and like doing it well? Yes, there's a lot. Several are doing it very well. I mean, let's, you know, look at Ralph Lauren. Yeah. I mean, that transition is seamless between architecture, interior design, product design, tabletop, everything. Christian Siriano has been doing it very well. You know, of course, there's Armani who's done it, and now there's a recent— Todd Snyder is doing a collection for CB2. You know, and there's several designers who started out as architects. You know, Narciso Rodriguez studied architecture. I think Tom Ford even studied architecture. The creation and like the understanding of how to create something, whether it's so literal and structural, but, or, you know, in a garment. I love that there's You're really able to kind of cross over so much. Um, I personally think interiors has a bit more longevity than fashion. Um, less cutthroat in my opinion. Absolutely. My background is in editorial styling and then I moved to interiors. So, um, well, if you buy a beautiful piece of furniture, you have it forever. Of course, you know, it's not the same as clothing. Yeah. You know, which is so dispensable. You know, it's— I mean, I remember making the transition from interiors world to the fashion world. And in the interiors world, you could go to a showroom and spend time and talk to people, and they, you know, and it's just lovely. In the fashion world, if you're not writing an order immediately, they have no time for you. It's like, get out of here. You know, get the pencil out or go. Totally. You know, and that's what— it's nice to have something that has some substance and that lasts. Yeah, even from a career perspective, there's this sense of like longevity where it's not— you know, you talk so openly about like kindness is just the most important trait you can really have. Um, when I was in fashion, it was just something I never saw. I never saw that element of kindness from someone else. Um, And it really, it really wears on you. How has that concept shaped you at all? I'm not sure that— I mean, I just don't think about it. It's just inherent in my— It's just who you are. Yeah. Yeah. Do you ever find that there was a moment where that was tested? Oh gosh, tested all the time. But you rise above. How much is it, um, personality, kindness versus just talent? Like who you are versus what you can actually do? Well, I think it's a combination of all of that. I mean, you can't be successful just by being nice. You have to have talent. You have to have substance, um, you know, and you have to constantly be weighing that and, um, managing how you How you operate in the world. There's so much, um, to what we do that I think is just a sales job. At the end of the day, you have to be able to sell, you know, a lifestyle. Absolutely. Sell a vision. Um, and that fashion is the same, same way. Absolutely. You know, you really need to be able to sell it. But for interior's perspective, I think that this is, um, you know, as you said, absolutely, it's therapy and it's execution. You have to be able to do it. It's not just, um, talent. And you've, you've also championed designers whose talent is beyond, um, you know, a sketch, like a Tommy Hilfiger who is not actually doing all the work but who is the face of the brand, um, and is building something bigger than, you know, who his name is. Um, where do you see the balance between showing up and like doing the actual work? Well, first of all, showing up is the most important thing. Nothing happens if you don't show up. But, you know, people have to really understand that. I mean, and I do this a lot when I talk to student groups, and everybody wants to get out of school and become a designer and have their name on a label, you know. And for every name on a label to be successful, there are hundreds of people, sometimes thousands, behind that name. And they all work in the fashion business, and they're all involved in design in some, some aspect. And they all should be proud of that. I'm in the— working in the fashion industry. Everybody can't have their name on the label. Mm-hmm. But with people like Tommy, I mean, to this day, Tommy is, is extraordinary. First of all, talk about kindness. He's probably one of the nicest guys in the whole business. Always nice, always has the time to speak to you, and always responds to your texts and messages. But he has reinvented that company so many times. You know, he doesn't need to be sitting in the design room. I mean, he makes— it's relationships and the people he brings to do the collaborations and special collections with them. You know, his vision of where and how to do a show. I mean, this past Fashion Week, they took over the entire Plaza Hotel. I mean, it was just remarkable from every aspect of the main floor and ground floor and ballrooms. It was spectacular. You know, and he pulls in people from all walks of life. You know, the athletes, the TV, the stars, the writers. You know, everybody who's doing anything out there gets involved. You know, and Tommy's— Tommy's... I'm not sure his face so much, but his logo and his brand is out there. But he is— he's it. He's the spokesperson for it. And when I was at CFDA, I remember many of our very contentious admissions meetings where we were reviewing new designers to admit to the organization, you know, and I don't vote on that, but the designers who are on the board or on the committee do. Lots of times they would get very upset about somebody like Tommy. Oh, he's not really a designer. It's a big company. I'm like, are you kidding me? Nothing gets done without Tommy's approval. Tommy's name is on it, and he will step up to the plate for that. How many of you, I'd say, on the committee would kill to have the kind of backing that Tommy has? You know, to build your own stores or have your own big ad campaigns or do that, you know, like, this is just jealousy, right? You know, Tommy is, is business. Yeah, it takes a real creative genius to do what he's doing because it's so much harder to expand in that way and be so deliberate and so consistent with what you're doing. Like, there is a clear— there's a clear outline to, you know, what he puts out into the universe. You know, he might not be doing every little thing, but there is Consistency that he set from the beginning that he's able to, you know, give to his team and allow them to execute. Um, and I think that's a real just creative genius from a business perspective to be able to do it and do it well. Absolutely. Um, it's so rare. So you mentioned the Plaza Hotel. Um, Fashion Week, as we know, is like spread everywhere again. What are your thoughts? How do you feel about it now? I feel a little bit sad about it. You know, I mean, if I had walked around Fashion Week with a bucket, you know, making contributions to reorganize it and get me back involved, I mean, that bucket would be filled frequently. Everybody's stopping, Fern, come back, come back. You know, it needs, it needs a new rethinking. You know, I think, I think there are a lot of people who really shouldn't be doing shows who do and spend the money. I'm not sure who some of them do the shows for. The audiences have changed. The whole way of doing business has changed. You know, this phone that we carry in our hand. I mean, you know, do you need Saks Fifth Avenue or do you need that phone? You know, where are you going to do more business out of? You know, it's crazy. So where do you think that direction is going? Like, who are they selling? They're selling to the consumer. Yeah, yeah. I think that B2C is really where it's at. And it's a whole other world now. I mean, resale is probably more successful than it's ever been. Vintage. You know, people are happily recycling and shopping in their closets again. You know, there really is too much merchandise out there. There's too much being made, you know, and it's filling landfills, which very much upset my 10-year-old prodigy that I work with, Max Alexander, who just came back from Chile, which is the second largest dump of merchandise around in the world, you know, and he was just so upset there seeing how much waste, you know, from fast fashion that people are buying and throwing out and getting rid of, and that has to stop. Yeah. How do we combat that at this point? What do we— Well, I think there's a lot of information out there and a lot of education. You know, Max has become an ambassador for that cause. You know, really shouting out to people to stop buying at fast fashion stores. And a lot of companies are addressing their own individual sustainability efforts with the way they ship things, the packaging, the materials they use. I mean, it is a priority for a lot of companies, and there's a young generation who's very savvy to that. And will it completely change in my lifetime? Probably not, but we're making little, little, little inroads. Yeah, yeah. Do you find that there are— there's a need for the more handmade in terms of what we want to see or what you think should be shown? Oh, I mean, there's a huge market for the handmade and the craftsmanship and the You know, like I said, I'm heading off to India next week for various meetings and things. But I mean, that culture where you see people beading and embroidering and, you know, in Asia, all that workmanship is— it's so important to maintain that and to encourage that and support that. I mean, that's what gives the world gravitas. It's The creative people, hands-on, the touch and feel. Yeah, that's so important. It's a lost art, really. Well, I mean, people just don't train young kids anymore to do that. Yeah. And, you know, you're told this and swiping and— yeah, it's crazy. Same thing in, you know, home. It's the craftsmanship of building furniture or, you know, the real detail, handmade detail. Yeah, it just doesn't really exist. Or if it does exist, It's inordinately expensive. Yeah, well, don't get me going on the prices of things. So I'm curious because we take a runway show like Tommy's in the Plaza Hotel that had such opulence, right? How do we, how do we think about Fashion Week kind of going back to being the way that it maybe was, or a piece of maybe the way that it was, but still maintaining that theatrical component that they're able to really do now that you're seeing? It's all possible. I mean, every brand is not in a position to do a spectacular show, you know, and there are a lot of, you know, I support a lot of the shows that are doing something in a really unique, special place, you know, but it's about how it's scheduled and the timing of it. You know, you can't do that at 3 o'clock, you know, in the Upper East Side. gorgeous venue if the 2 o'clock show is, you know, at the Battery or is in Brooklyn. You know, I mean, it's— you have to look at the calendar in a much more user-friendly, you know, hat on about how to schedule things. But at the end of the day, you're there to see the clothes and see them on a runway, you know, and see beautiful people wearing them and how that how they move and how an audience even reacts to it. And that can be in an organized venue that multiple people use. And even the tents, I mean, they were personalized. They weren't always just so exactly the same for everybody. There were always enough hours to put something in there to make it yours. I think that there's still a need for that, and I think that that still can happen. It's just, it's tough in New York. Location and space is just— It can take you an hour to go 10 blocks. Oh, well, now it's getting worse and worse. The traffic is unbearable. There's major streets and avenues in New York where there's one lane of traffic only between the bike lane and then the other extra parking lane and then all the The Amazon trucks delivering, and then, you know, there's— Don't get me started on the bikes. The bikes. But also all those delivery trucks. I mean, every other block is like a loading dock. And, you know, and do they pull over to the curb? No, they stop right on the lane of traffic. Yeah. And throwing boxes out. It's crazy. I wish our mayor would Yes. Well, that is a conversation for another day. Do you think— I know, I know we touched on, you know, phones really, but how do you feel about the, you know, technology AI world within, you know, the fashion industry? How that it either helps or kind of hurts that we're able to do things faster, we're able to do things more You know, consistently. How do you, how do you feel about it? Well, clearly AI is here, and it's becoming more and more pervasive every day and every hour. And I think it behooves us, and myself personally, to learn more about how to use it properly and how it makes sense and how it can help. Because when used properly, it's, it's a huge opportunity. In addition, it's, it's a great time saver. It's— I mean, I'm shocked when you just ask, you know, ChatGPT or Claude, you know, a stupid question, and in a minute, you— less than a minute, you get an answer that would take you hours to search for. You know, if you know how to use it. Right. You know, and, and there are people who are clearly doing complete business plans and marketing proposals and contracts and everything on there. It's here to stay. Fashion design, whatever. I mean, it's— I don't think it's designing things. I don't think AI is creative in that aspect. And thank God that, that we're not using it to say, to do that. But there are designers who— I mean, a couple of years ago, went down to Norma Kamali's presentation, and she— and it was a huge video wall, and she went into the archives and asked AI to update the collections, and it was all— a lot of it was AI-generated. Using new ideas on older versions. You know, it was just like, wait a minute, wait, wait, what are we watching? Ahead of her time. Oh, she's always been— she was one of the first designers who worked with computers and technology and barcodes and really way ahead of her time. Wow, that's incredible. And that was part of her show? Yeah, presentations. Oh, wow. Okay. Interesting. So we're clearly craving this element of, you know, the handmade, the hand-done. Do you think there's a movement toward, um, or where does the couture fit into this versus ready-to-wear? Well, you know, it makes me crazy to say there is so, so, so much money out there now. There are people that just— vast fortunes that, you know, they and their families can never live long enough to spend a fraction of it. Mm-hmm. And the couture market is flourishing. I mean, couture is— there are years we felt in my career that couture wasn't so important and wasn't happening, but it's alive and well, and people can afford that. You know, and can afford that handmade and to their body. And, you know, a lot of, a lot of business from the Middle East and from Asia and the Chinese markets and people just— and a lot of it is tech money and AI money and money that makes money. You know, I don't even know, you know, all these billionaires and gazillionaires. You know, there was a time when I was growing up, oh, they make cars. Oh, they make this product. Oh, they make zippers. They make, you know, drugs, you know, pharmaceuticals. They— now you don't know what these people— all they do is move money and make— Money. You know, Bitcoin. I don't know. I mean, I still don't understand Bitcoin and never will. Um, so, you know, if they can support the couture market, so be it. So it almost feels like there's this dip. There's all— there's a dip in the ready-to-wear market because it's like that middle tier that people don't really spend the money on because it's aspirational. Couture, people can afford Well, everything's become so expensive. Yeah. I mean, even just regular designer clothes. I mean, the price of a handbag, you know, that used to be $1,200,$3,000. Why? Because, because it can and because people will spend it. I wish there was a complete reconnect and restructuring of all the pricing. It's out of control. Yep. Do you find that there's the pricing— I agree with you, it was out of control, but is that also because of labor costs are so much more expensive? Rent to have your studio is so much more expensive? It's a little bit of all of that, you know, and tariffs that our president is imposing on companies and countries, you know, that are ridiculous. And, you know, I'm not sure that everything has to cost as much as it does. Not really. The whole supply chain thing is interesting. So you mentioned you're in India. How much of your work is, you know, outside the US? No, my work is based in the US, but India is one of my happy places. I mean, I worked on Fashion Week there for 10 years, and I worked on the board of a diamond company for 10 years. And so I've probably made, I don't know, 60, 70-some-odd trips to India. Wow. And I'm going as part of a trip with FIT, which I'm on the foundation board and spend a lot of time working on initiatives with FIT. Amazing. Yeah, they're right across the street. Right across the street. We give them all of our samples after projects. We give them for their students. So we've had a nice relationship. Fantastic. Yeah, they have a brand new president that Crazy about. He's a good guy. So how does those other fashion weeks compare? You know, there are fashion weeks all over the world. I mean, this summer, on July 4th weekend, I was invited by the U.S. Ambassador to Malta to come and be an example of America's excellence and celebrate the 250th and kick off Malta Fashion Week. I didn't even know there was a Malta Fashion Week, you know, and I met lots of the designers and it was lovely. But you name a country and they have a fashion week now, and you name a city. I mean, and for many years when I left CFDA, I became the only person who really was supportive of what we called regional fashion weeks. So I was consulting for quite a few years in Charleston and in Nashville and Philly. I still go down to Philly Fashion Week. And, um, you know, there's, there's Chicago, there's San Antonio, there's Portland, there's, you know— Wow. And everywhere you go, you know, there's several in Miami. Um, yes. And it's, you know, there's talent everywhere in the world and everywhere in the country. You know, you don't have to be in New York to, to be a designer anymore. And I, I mean, I love that. I like encouraging all these local independent designers to be doing their thing. And yep, there's certainly a world to be had if you want. Yeah. Um, what does— what does the future of fashion hold in your mind? What's next for this industry? Well, if I really had that crystal ball, I wouldn't be sitting here with you. I'd probably be on my yacht somewhere in the Mediterranean, maybe having a nice grand time. You know, the good news is we're all wearing clothes and we'll continue to wear clothes. Right. So there will always be a fashion industry and an apparel industry. And then— And that, that's the good news. It will, will get its, you know, hiccups here and there. But it's, it's just, it's changing. Like I said, is it the retail stores that, you know, that have changed so much and buying patterns and how people shop and where they shop? But people still want clothing to to talk to them, and their clothing talks about them. You know, it is one of the all-time best communicators. You know, when you meet somebody the first time, you know, you can never change your first impression. And you look at them and you look at what they're wearing, and you instantly, good, bad, or otherwise, have formed an opinion in your head about who they are and what they are and what they're about. You know, it might be completely different, but— What they're wearing tells you a little bit about who they are. And I always get really annoyed when people say, oh, I don't think about clothing. I don't care. You know, I know nothing about fashion. And I'm like, no, you know a lot more than you want to admit. You know, it's not— you wake up every day and you decide what you're going to wear. You know, and you decide that I want to be noticed. I don't want to be noticed. I want to just fit in. I want to be comfortable. No, I want to be cool. I want somebody to say, you look fabulous. You— subconsciously, you're making a lot of decisions every day about what you're wearing and what you put on your body. And it, and it tells a story. And I think we need that because, you know, too many people don't talk to each other anymore. Yeah. Everybody's head is down in their palm of their hand. And, you know, but the clothing, clothing speaks volumes, you know. And there's a lot of stuff out there that I abhor in fashion, you know. I'm, I'm really, I'm not a fan of all the naked dressing. Mm-hmm. I mean, and in this past seasons and in the past fashion weeks, I mean, everybody's, you know, has more nakedness than, than fabric on their bodies. And, you know, and everything was with bras, little bra tops and skirts below the navel. And I'm like, come on, really? Really? I mean, I don't think a piece of lace or chiffon thrown over a naked body is a dress, is clothing. You know, it makes me nuts. So much of this also is just Celebrity culture, right? Just looking at what cool kids are doing, looking at what like the hot celebrities is wearing, what shows they're sitting at. I mean, so much is dictated by— Yeah, we are, we are unfortunately addicted to celebrity culture, and, and that's because of Instagram and TikTok. And, you know, and it started with all the 24-hour cable stations that were trying to fill content with celebrity news and celebrity stories. And, you know, and it's changed a lot. But I mean, some celebrities dress fabulously. You know, I mean, I was just at Fashion Group Gala last week and they honored Michaela Erlanger, who's a great stylist. And she's, you know, dressed, you know, Meryl Streep for the entire Devil Wears Prada 2 launch. And she looked incredible. Every single city they were in, the clothes were fabulous. You know, I've, I've had Law Roach at the 92nd Street Y. I mean, what he does with Zendaya and other people's dresses are spectacular. Celine Dion. And, you know, I mean, there are stylists who really do a spectacular job of dressing people. And working— he just started working with Kim Kardashian. Oh, good luck. He has to reinvent what the rest of the world has has seen, but I think if anyone's up to the challenge. Um, what's the future for Fern? Who knows? You know, I, I like the fact that I'm not really sure what's, what's next all the time. Yeah, you know, you never know the next phone call or email you get. I have an idea I'd love to talk to you about. Yeah, um, but there are, there are lots of balls in the air, you know. Um, I'm working starting on the 3rd book of my Conversation series, the Fashion Icons books, you know, and I do have a series starting up again in January with Mickey Drexler, which will be an interesting talk about the industry and how it's changed over the years. I mean, he's such an iconic businessman, um, and I have a lot— few other good ones that we need to start confirming. Yeah. You know, so that series will continue on. And there are several other collaborations and things in the works and balls in the air. That's very exciting. I'm so excited for you and for all of your accolades. Congratulations. It's a very exciting time. Thank you so much for being here. I appreciate your time and have the best trip. Thank you. I look forward to seeing what's next. Thank you, and I look forward to seeing more of your work. Being in this office is lovely. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for being here for another episode of The Interior Perspective, and we'll see you next week. That's it for today. If something landed, send it to someone who really needs to hear this. Like, subscribe, come back next week. And if you need more in the meantime, you can find me @NicoleRFisher and everything NFI@NicoleFisherInteriors. See you next time. Transformers.